Mount Madonna School —Interview with Professor Samdhong Rinpoche

April 27, 2011

Ward Mailliard: This is a big honour for us, so I’m going to ask Emma to introduce the group.

Emma: We are seniors from Mount Madonna School in California and this is our Values in World Thought Program. Our project we’re here for is called Vidhya Dharma, we have come to India to gain a better understanding about ourselves and our world and we do have questions prepared for you but if you do have any opening comments we’d be happy to hear them.

Prof. Rinpoche: First of all, welcome to Dharamshala, and also we welcome your interest in Dharma and Tibetan affairs. Dharamshala is a difficult place and there might be many inconveniences but in spite of that you chose to come, that shows your deep interest. That is all, you can go to your questions and I will try to answer them.

Susie: Hello, my name is Susie. Yesterday, His Holiness told us that the purpose of education is to reduce the gap between perception and reality or to move towards the Truth. We were wondering what your views are on education in relation to finding the Truth?

Prof. Rinpoche: My view is not different from His Holiness’s view and actually, the Buddhist concept of education does not differentiate education and training. Training and education is one and the same, that is, to train the mind through a discipline, in order to awake the inner intelligence of the individuals. The wisdom is inbuilt, the wisdom is of the individual quality but that quality has been obscured by so many different conditionings and that is why he or she is unable to use the inner intelligence to discriminate the right and wrong. The purpose of education is to free the wisdom of the mind from those conditionings. My late friend, you may have heard, Jidu Krishnamurti, used to say that education is the awakening of inner intelligence so that a person can flower in goodness. Once your inner intelligence is awakened, then you become free and that means you have a free judgement of the right and wrong for yourself and therefore you always do good and flower in goodness. So, this is my viewpoint of education; particularly, the Buddha says you need discipline, moral code and thereafter a concentrative mind. If you have a certain degree of moral discipline and a concentrative mindset then, you will be able to awake your wisdom. Then after the awakening of the wisdom, the truth is before you and things become clearer to you.

Lily: Hi, I’m Lily. When asked about the progress and achievements of the West you have been quoted as saying, what we have achieved is the amplification and enlargement of our vices. Is it possible to achieve material and intellectual progress without the enlargement of our vices?

Prof. Rinpoche: It all depends on how you define progress and development and the Western concept of progress and the ancient Eastern concept of progress is altogether different. So, if your concept or definition of progress is to increase the satisfaction of a sensory mind, then I don’t think the progress goes along without any vices because the Western model of progress is the exploitation of human greed. You exploit the human greed and therefore forget human needs and are unable to differentiate between the need and the greed. All your needs are taught by the producers and you have no freedom to understand what is your need and what is imposed upon you as an object of greed. Therefore if the progress is only for the satisfaction of a sensory mind, then you always try to exploit the human greed. Actually, if you look at human history, for the last 250–300 years, humanity has become so-called industrialised and the direct result of industrialisation is to produce more goods than needed. Then, these produces have to find a market and they very clearly understood that human greed can be exploited so easily. So they exploited human greed, making people feel they need more and more and more, unendingly. Actually the purpose of the shoe is to protect the feet when you walk around but then our greed has been exploited, we forget the purpose of the shoe, we place more emphasis on the colour, the shape and the design and then you need one shoe for morning work and another for the bathroom, the third for the office and the fourth for another thing and for jogging and hiking. So you will need more than a dozen of pairs of shoes for your one pair of feet. Then that is also conjoined with comparison and competition. Wherever, there is a competition there are vices, because one has to look for one’s own victory and the other’s defeat, so from that attitude all kinds of vices ensue.

Emma: Hi, I’m Emma. What aspects from your time as Prime Minister has been most rewarding and which aspects have been most challenging?

Prof. Rinpoche: First of all, the correct designation of my post is the Chairperson of the Kashag, we don’t designate the role of Prime Minister, but in the English language, the word Prime Minister can be used. I worked in this office for almost 10 years and I am by nature a very forgetful person, I don’t remember things; things come and go.

I cannot remember which was the biggest challenge or the happiest occasion, but during my tenure, I was able to do a few things which were of my liking and which represents my own concepts and ideas. One was the Basic Education Policy, of course it was adopted by the parliament but the draft was my contribution. In which I was able to spell out in detail, what is education, what is the purpose of education and what is the expectation from education and particularly for the Tibetans in Exile, what kind of education is needed for them . If you are interested, you may have that document from the Department of Education and it is translated into English. That gives me satisfaction, of course it is difficult to implement in totality but it gives me some kind of contribution.

Then, I was able to legalise all our activities and particularly the financial resources and the financial management of the Central Tibetan Administration for all the Tibetan settlements. And we were able to make them completely transparent, legal and moral. So, all developmental projects and other things, have been placed through 4 cross-cutting criteria. Before accepting any work or project, we have to examine from these four criteria: the first is non-violence, whether any work or project may cause directly or indirectly any violence, that was the first criteria. And the second criteria is eco-friendly. Any work or project we undertake, will it directly or indirectly cause harm to the environment and eco-system. The third is sustainability: there are many things which are temporarily very profitable but not sustainable; so we look for sustainability. The fourth is the output: the benefit should reach the poorest of the poor. So, through these four cross-cutting criteria we undertake all departmental projects for the Tibetan settlements and the Tibetan diaspora. These are something which we are able to incorporate into our working system; some kind of moral-based principles. And then my effort was to convert all the agriculture settlements to organic. These are a few things that I remember with happiness.

Then of course, the biggest challenge is to engage the PRC—People’s Republic of China—leadership, and in that front I was able to conduct 9 rounds of dialogue with the PRC leadership and we also kind of reached a logical conclusion of our engagement with them by submitting a very comprehensive Memorandum—a Memorandum of autonomy for all Tibetan people; that Memorandum is now in the public domain. That Memorandum was misinterpreted by PRC people and we are again able to give them clarification Notes, so that is also in the public domain. So, now they are not able to blame us or blame His Holiness of seeking separation or independence. So, these two documents explain very clearly and in detail what autonomy His Holiness and Tibetans in diaspora are looking for. It is a challenge, but at the same time, we are able to achieve something out of that.

PK: Hi, I’m PK. You once said that in reference to China’s actions against Tibet, that the so-called civilized community is unable to stop them, condemn them. We are unable to prevent such actions from happening. Sometimes, I have a tendency to lose faith in humanity. So, for me to hear someone of your stature say that at times they start to feel that they are losing faith in humanity does frighten me a little bit. So, I was wondering how you keep going under those circumstances and also if there’s a realistic way to change China’s policies towards Tibet?

Prof. Rinpoche: We cannot completely lose faith in humanity, as long as we have faith in truth. Human community has survived on the basis of truth, therefore we have to keep faith in humanity. But at many times, particularly in the so-called modern, civilized world, people go by convenience and they do not hear what injustice and wrong things are happening around them. I was reading a newspaper few years back, and there was a very appropriate heading that stuck in my mind. The heading says, ‘Never mind human rights, money matters’ and this speaks for the mindset of the modern leadership of the nations. There are vey good people at the grassroots, but the leadership, those who matter, and those who have the power for things to be done, they are only looking for trade and economic gain. The totalitarian dictatorship of Beijing could not have survived for such a long time until now, particularly after the disintegration of the Soviet Union, China should have followed that pattern, but China survived until today and they are still planning for many hundreds of years to come, to survive that sort of totalitarian regime and not caring for individual rights, individual freedom and their violation of human rights will continue because China is considered to be a good market. The market is being taken used and we thus they do not interfere in what China is doing for its people. This attitude is very disturbing, disheartening. In the beginning, there was a theory, perhaps it was invented and developed by Dr. Kissinger, that is, economic liberalisation will automatically bring political liberalisation and we must help China to grow and develop economically and need not do anything against China politically. But in the last 40 years, China has developed economically and has become completely market-oriented capitalism, there is no more communism in China, only the government machinery remains in a few people’s hands, a regime which is cruel and unsympathetic to people, and the people of China has suffered a great deal. The Tiananmen Square massacre was one of the unique things that happened but people everywhere around the world did not stop them from the massacre. Even today, we have been crying for three weeks to save the Ngapa Kirti Monastery from total destruction but nothing has happened; three people have been killed an 300 monks have been arrested or disappeared, the rest of the Monastery has been cordoned off. There is the shortage of food, drinking water—everything. So, this sort of torture in the 21st Century which is happening in front of the world community, but there is no nation, organisation, association, individual who can intervene to save the people for whom this is happening. So, this is a fact we have to accept. The will of the public, the people’s inspiration does not work all the time. If we look back a few years, before the Iraq war, in America, in Europe, everywhere the public opinion was so strong against that war. And people tried their level best, millions of people came out on the streets but ultimately, the people could not stop it. So, the power lies in the hands of very few people, and then the violence, destruction, exploitation happens. We shall have to accept this reality and think as to how to change this reality, otherwise humanity may not be able to survive for a long time. This is a serious matter, everyone has to think about it. That was my intention.

Emma: Hi, I’m Emma, and regarding the nature of real knowledge, you said, the real knowledge of the thing is not subject to development. It is there from the time of its revelation and it might be transmitted to a certain point in the lineage and then it begins to deteriorate. How can we maintain the true knowledge of the thing and prevent its deterioration?

Prof. Rinpoche: If you achieve the perception of the truth then there will not be a possibility of deterioration. But, you do not have the perception of truth and your knowledge is in the realm of thought, then there is a danger of deteriorating. Because all the thought processes are limited, they are conditioned and the thought does not touch directly with the reality, the truth; thoughts only grasps at the image of the truth. A person will have to put a continuous effort to get through the image to reach the real thing. Once you reach the real thing, then your knowledge is permanent, durable and it can only grow and it cannot deteriorate. So, the process of learning, process for education is to reach to that level of direct contact with reality.

Noah: Hi, my name is Noah. You already touched on this a little bit, but we saw an interview with Donovan Robert. You said the human mind is completely conditioned, we need to move beyond this conditioning and realise that our instruments are limited and that our minds can only go so far. How do you think we can move past this conditioning and limitation?

Prof. Rinpoche: I have no ready-made method or technology, each individual shall have to find that. First of all, you should not take my words, as it is, for granted; this is only an expression of my view. We need to examine whether what I have said is with reality or it is just my imagination. Unless you examine it for yourself, you can be carried away. If you accept my words, then you will also be accepting someone else’s word which may say the opposite of what I said. So, both of this is not your knowledge, you are just depending on borrowed information. So, in the Buddhist learning process, we say three stages. The first is hearing, the second is contemplation and the third is meditation. Hearing means, reading books or learning from the teacher, you just accumulate the information. Then, after accumulating the information, you have to follow it up with contemplation, you have to examine it for yourself, whether it is correct according to my analysis or if it’s false. When you find it is correct or false for yourself then the knowledge becomes your own; until then, the knowledge is a borrowed one. Then thereafter you concentrate on such things which you discovered and your concentration or your meditation will lead to your direct perception of that reality. Then you can say, I know it. I see it.

So, how to get out of this conditioning of the mind? I think the only way is seriously, and forcefully observe the forces and activities of the mind. Particularly the thought, the thought has no watcher, if you have a watcher, you have an observation to the process of your thoughts and then you will be able to see, listen and be able to touch without interference of the thought. You will be able to reach the object by yourself, without the judgement of or without the enemy of the thought-process. So, Jidu Krishnamurti used to say that the truth is a pathless island and you shall have to find for yourself how to reach there. Only an outsider or a different individual can say, see, observe, to become introvert, and if you are able to silently, undisturbingly be able to see the thought-process and the operation of the mind, only then will you be able to see the conditioning or the limitation. Once you see that limitation, then I think, you needn’t do any separate effort to overcome it. Seeing itself is the antidote of the limitation.

Chelsea: Hi, my name is Chelsea; you said the seed of virtuous conduct is required for one’s own development and also for social harmony. Can you talk about the process of how virtue works for our self development?

Prof. Rinpoche: Virtue and vices sometimes they differ from place to place, time to time, it is relative to time and space and a number of things. But the basic virtue, the basic goodness, I think the nature, that is always unchanging; it does not depend on time, or space or place even. It is an everlasting truth, so if you are able to discover that inner goodness of yourself, then you automatically become yourself a virtuous person. And if a virtuous person relates with the community or society then a harmonious society becomes possible. Without awakening the basic goodness, simply trying to achieve a harmonious society might become an imposed harmony, by law or by social behaviour or by local conditions, customs. This kind of harmonious living or society, is temporary, superficial which can be disturbed so easily.

I think that in today’s modern world we have a lot of conflicts and confrontations because we do not have a real harmonious living, because we have lost the real goodness of all the individuals. In short, I might say, understanding of self is the key to awake the goodness. If you observe yourself, you will see we conceive of a very strong monolithic self; somebody calls your name and your immediate reaction is, ‘I am, I am here’. Or if somebody praises you, you become very proud or if somebody abuses you, you become very angry, annoyed, and at that time the self you are thinking of yourself, is not the real self. It is just an imaginative and an imposed self. That is the hindrance of not knowing the self. Why the Buddhist people talk about the selflessness or the nair-atma? It does not mean annihilation, it does not mean that the individual does not exist, that is not what we are saying. Even the other religious traditions, the Hindus, the Jains, talk about the soul, atma, and the Buddhists talk about the soul-lessness, selflessness. It appears to be talking about opposite things but actually they are not talking about opposite things. Both of them say that you are not realising, you are not seeing the soul or your real self. You are just imagining a different self which just throws you open and covers all of your inner wisdom, inner intelligence; so you have to remove this cover and see the inter-dependence origination, ever-changing self. Perhaps, this is a little technical. Everything exists inter-dependently, so the self is also of an interdependent nature. If you are able to see that interdependent and ever-changing self, then your goodness will show and you will be able to build a very harmonious society around you. Sorry, I have been explaining too long; Is it too difficult to understand?

Ward Mailliard: No, that’s a beautiful discourse, what we can do is we can think on it, reflect on it after some time.

Lindsay: Hi, my name is Lindsay. We found a quote of you about the three conditions for something to be considered an authentic tradition. One, to be taught by an authentic or divine source; two, transmitted by means of an unbroken lineage; and three, verifiable through common-sense and self-knowledge. Yesterday we spoke with His Holiness and he told us that common experience and common-sense are important in creating genuine universal values. Do you think authentic traditions always carry universal values?

Prof. Rinpoche: I think so, I would say yes. Tradition is a term which refers to a very different or very unique continuity but today we use the term ‘tradition’ for all kinds of perpetuated customs or habits. A long-term perpetuated custom or habit doesn’t become a tradition. For example, in India, there is caste discrimination perpetuated for along time, and this caste discrimination is not a part of Indian spirituality, it is not a tradition but it is a bad system which has been in perpetuation for a long time.

So, tradition means, firstly, it must originate from an authentic source. In Christian terminology they might say, a divine source. Authentic source means a source which has knowledge or the perception of truth. Only that kind of source can create a tradition and that teaching comes from a lineage, an unbroken lineage. Buddha taught his direct disciples and his direct disciples taught their own direct disciples and we can recount for the last 2500 years of the teaching-lineage of the Buddha up to now. Thus it comes through this kind of lineage.

Then, similarly, it needs to be verifiable scientifically or by common-sense or by logic. If it is illogical or scientifically wrong then we cannot consider it as a tradition. So, all traditions, if you reach the real tradition, it may be Christianity, it may be Muslim, it may be Hinduism or Buddhism, the real tradition is always talking about a universal value, but then these traditions have gradually disappeared and many other outside alterations and things have crept into. Today, we are considering many things as traditions of some religion or some society; they are not different, they are not talking about a universal value. Universal value means a value which can be known by any person without depending on entering the faith of certain religion. Atheists or non-believers can also verify a universal value, because a value which is universal should be knowable as such and should be acceptable to everyone.

Kevin: Hi, as the next generation coming forward, do you have any advice you’d like to give us?

Prof. Rinpoche: No. (laughter) Many people ask me to give advice, so I always say I’m not an advisor. Advice does not work. Advice sometimes can mislead you. You are an energetic young person and you have all the necessary conditions, facilities and ability to know the truth for yourself, to find your way by your own wisdom and that wisdom will be authentic to you. It may not be authentic to everybody but it will be authentic to you. Therefore, you should not depend on advices, you should depend on your own wisdom and for that you have to work hard. To seek advice is easy, easy-approach job. To find the truth by yourself, that is a little difficult and you have to work hard continuously and you will find it.

Ward Mailliard: Thank you so much. You can think about what Rinpoche said for the next ten years, okay.